Old San Rafael Neighborhood Organization

Neighborhood Meeting Minutes - August, 16, 2001

Dec 28, 2002

San Rafael neighborhood meeting at Barney Ford Apartments
8/16 meeting minutes
taken by Heather Zorn of The Uptown Partnership, Inc.

Attending: Steve Mohler, Don Gortner, Bob Marshall, Terry Goodwin, Todd Taylor, Ken Kyle, Marla & Leon Graber, Hugh & Annette Gebuis-Murphy, Janet Meis, Christian Buchholz, Betty Meyer, Wendy Sandle, Cheryl Meyer & Daniel Lynch, Geof Datesman, Arthur Espinoza & Jeff Newman, Nelson & Bonita Bock, Janet Thomas, John Macy, Norman Cable, Chris Findlater, Larry Hoover, Nicole Vette, Stephanie Shearer, Jim & Nancy Wiseman, Jerry Garner, Alana Smart (Denver City Council), Stephani Cross (City Council Dist. 8), Brian Cruce, Sarah Schoentgen, Meghen Duiggins, Helen French, Chris Bacorn, Deidre Schneider & Corey Oakley, Joan Barrett, Dale Harmon,Carol Tervo, Walt & Laura Hix, Marnie Ward & Patrick Fischer, Jacquie Lofton, Paul Brothe, Marty Jones, Chuck Brantigan, Erica Lindhome, Lisa Barker, Becky Bicknell, Joshua Huber, Sharon Nunnally


Marty Jones ?– Introduced himself, thanked the people of Barney Ford for making the room available and Paul Brothe and Benita for passing out fliers regarding the meeting. MJ made announcements about Denver Digs discount trees and the San Rafael neighborhood website. He said the main issue for conversation was the proposed development at 2220 Washington and that there were a few items to discuss prior. He introduced Steve Molder to talk about the proposed wine shop.

Steve Mohler ?– Explained that he was looking for neighborhood support for a proposed fine wine shop.

Ken Kyle - Spoke about a community cleanup that had been scheduled. He asked for neighbors to sign up to help out and passed out several fliers and a sign up sheet.

MJ ?– Stated that he wanted everyone to get information about the project from The Uptown Partnership (TUP). He said that the neighborhood and TUP are not adversaries and that we wanted to work to come to a ?“happy medium?”

Sharon Nunnally ?– Introduced herself as Vice President of the TUP Board of Directors. Sharon talked about the evolution of the neighborhood from her perspective as a long-time resident. She talked about the history of North Capitol Hill Development Corporation/TUP and TUP?’s mission. She talked about TUP?’s for-rent and for-sale projects and named several of the properties TUP owns and operates including Uptown Gardens and La Grace. Sharon talked about the history of Washington Place I & II as the first for-sale new construction in the Capitol Hill neighborhood in years -- before other developers would work in the neighborhood.

Sharon explained that the first step in the development of 2220 Washington is changing part of the zoning. Zoning in the neighborhood is fractured which makes the project more difficult. This first step, applying for a change, is more of a technicality than a design issue.

The project will take up most of the land mass with internal parking. She said she understood there were some issues around density, that the development was projected on the basis of space and ongoing needs of the community.

Sharon spoke about the problems of long-time residents being priced out of the community. TUP?’s goals are to enhance the community, address the loss of affordable housing stock. The density provides the opportunity to do this, but is still not the kind of density common to cities or low-income housing. TUP develops a quality product. Sharon referenced TUP?’s San Rafael houses development.

Terry Goodwin ?–# of units?

SN ?– 50 units, the property is 9 lots. Height is estimated at 59?’. This density is a necessity for our nonprofit funding.

MJ ?– 59?’ is how many stories?

Jacquie Lofton ?– What?’s the current zoning?

Becky Bicknell ?– Introduced herself as TUP Project Assistant working on the rezoning process. Current zoning configuration is 6 lots R3 and 3 lots B4.

JL?– The reason why I ask is regarding parking.

BB ?– Explained that TUP is submitting an application for rezoning to the City. She briefly explained the process. TUP needed to contact relevant neighborhood organizations as a part of the process. Our goal for tonight is to get an official statement. Becky explained the process including the opportunity for the neighborhood to make a legal protest.

A neighbor ?– What do you want to rezone?

BB ?– We know about the density protest. Currently, we are at the zoning process and we don?’t feel the development is out of character with the surroundings. Becky introduced Chris Smith. He will show the envelope of what we could do under current zoning.

Paul Brothe ?– What?’s your timeline and process to accept comments?

BB ?– We will submit the rezoning application in two weeks. We want an official letter from the neighborhood organization.

Chuck Brantigan ?– I think that?’s an unwise move on your part. You need more time to build consensus.

Josh Huber ?– Introduced himself as Project Manager of TUP, person who develops proformas and ?“does numbers?” At this point in the rezoning process, we need an initial response, TUP will continue to work with the neighborhood after rezoning application is submitted. Our constraints include the need to submit the application to access predevelopment monies in order to do the preliminary design.

Chris Smith ?– Introduced himself as consultant asked by the Partnership to develop a concept analysis of zoning, to give a sense of scale. TUP asked him to look at 50 units. Chris showed his boards to the group and explained parking including number of spaces, orientation, entrances and how to design to minimize the impact of the appearance. He spoke about the open space requirement under R3.

PB ?– What would current zoning allow? What would the footprint be?

CS ?– I don?’t have a graphic of what existing zoning footprint would look like.

PB ?– So how can we compare?

SN ?– We can give zone descriptions. R-zone is to the neighborhood?’s advantage.

Chris Bacorn ?– What?’s next to it (the site)?

CS ?– I know there are many questions, but it will be to everyone?’s advantage for us to give the whole analysis first.

MJ ?– B-zone is advantageous to the neighborhood.

CB ?– Please let us present all we have first.

BB ?– I want to answer Paul?’s question about what we could do now. Under current zoning we could develop 75,000 sq ft. Under R3 it would be 86,000 sq ft.

Arthur Espinoza ?– Do you have a plan now?

CS ?– TUP has a program, a proforma. Based on the land cost, that says 50 units, and the goal is to build as many affordable units as possible. TUP is not at the architect level.

BB ?– Part of what we did after the meeting at Paul Brothe?’s house was to analyze # of stories we could do 50 units in.

CS ?– Showing the board with a potential envelope. Here?’s one concept of what the building could look like. Chris explained setbacks and how the building would relate to the building next door. How many ft away the building would be from surrounding structures. He explained voids and how the building could be designed to read better.

MJ ?– Where do the residences start? 14 ft?

CB & CS ?– 4 ft.

CS ?– Chris further explained parking and voids. He also showed the 3D concepts.

MJ ?– Can you show it to everyone? Please walk around the room.

Chris walked through the aisle showing neighbors the 3D concepts.

MJ ?– Are there comments?

CB ?– I would like to crystallize the issues. Chuck introduced himself as long-time resident, Uptown Urban Design Forum member. I think the issue is one of density and it needs to be addressed. Zoning needs to match what?’s on the street. B4 or R3 doesn?’t really matter, it?’s a use by right. But now we have TUP talking to the neighborhood.

The strategy in the past has been to hold development hostage by zoning. The problem is that TUP has a use by right. If TUP doesn?’t keep control, someone else will come in and won?’t involve the neighborhood. You could stop the rezoning but not the big project. Perhaps there?’s a larger issue of rezoning the neighborhood or creating an overlay district.

SN ?– We would like to file the application in two weeks. The whole process is longer. We are not in design yet. The next phase is really where neighborhood input comes into play, so that the building works and uses good materials.

Norman Bock ?– I want to understand the process. You are asking for neighborhood input for this application. When next is neighborhood input required?

SN ?– It?’s not but TUP doesn?’t operate that way. We want to make it look like it belongs. Sharon gave the example of Emerson Place at 16th Ave. in Swallow Hill and how the overall look fits in with the neighborhood. TUP intends to follow a similar process.

NB ?– Would TUP make a formal agreement that the neighborhood will be formally involved?

SN - Yes, I think we could do that. But you all need to understand our timeline.

MJ ?– Norman, you have a question?

NB ?– There is a difference in FAR.

BB ?– Yes, but our threshold for the project is under both.

JH ?– I?’d like to respond. The question was what?’s allowable?

NB ?– I was trying to clarify.

Stephanie Shearer ?– I?’ve been in the neighborhood for 13 years and there are only two structures this size - only this building (Barney Ford Apartments) and the parking garage. That?’s important to point out.

BB ?– When you think of your neighborhood do you draw a boundary.

Several people said ?“yes!?”

MJ ?– Yes. Absolutely. We are not in support until the project is scaled down.

Helen French ?– Do you have statistics of other projects where people who bought already lived in the neighborhood?

SN ?– Sharon gave some more history of TUP?’s rental projects. As we look at the numbers it doesn?’t really matter where they (low-income buyers) live. We are bringing a new product to the market.

HF ?– So the project really isn?’t for the benefit of people living in the neighborhood?

SN ?– We can?’t isolate this project for people in this community.

JL ?– I?’m an advocate and tenant. I don?’t think the issue is zoning. This wasn?’t brought to the community first, as it should have been. That always creates a problem. We want to keep the project in line with the neighborhood. I live across from the Children?’s parking garage. That?’s created a problem for the 5-Plex ?– it blocks our light, snow stays on the street?…. How will this development affect the houses around it? I?’m not going to sign any paper tonight.

BB ?– It?’s a one-page form that indicates whether the group gives support or no support. And I?’ll ask you to ask Marty how long ago we talked to Marty.

MJ ?– We met with Uptown three weeks ago and Paul Brothe met them a week before that.

CS ?– I?’ve worked as a planner for 2 ?½ years and the project should go to the neighborhood. We are showing you the project before its being rezoned. TUP is going beyond. I?’m sorry some folks don?’t see it that way. This development is being rezoned not designed.

JL ?– TUP has worked with the community in the past. That?’s why I was shocked.

SN ?– Anything required for rezoning triggers this process.

MJ ?– I?’d like to throw in the neighborhood perspective. TUP needs something from us ?– our support. We all want to see the property developed. We can?’t support the zoning change because of the density ?– the size and scale are out of character with the rest of the neighborhood. If we allow this building to come in we are going to sacrifice 100 years of tradition to 10 units of affordable housing. We want to compromise?… make a building that?’s 3, 2, 3 ?½ stories.

SN ?– Let me clarify. There isn?’t a design. We wanted to give some sort of perspective of the building as it relates to the land. Don?’t take this as the design.

MJ ?– Our dilemna?…

SN ?– Let?’s get calm. Think in terms of zoning. The change is a technicality. The zoning is equal. If council says keep the B4, it doesn?’t preclude the density. We are not at the design stage yet. This is a technical piece.

Erica Lindhome ?– I?’d like to commend you. TUP does great projects. Erica talked about the loss of affordable housing in Curtis Park that hasn?’t been replaced. Developing affordable housing is difficult. I appreciate that you?’re doing it. The choppy zoning means that maybe a Blockbuster could move it. Change is hard but it needs to happen.

SN ?– Sharon reiterated that this is a for-sale vs. a for-rent project.

MJ ?– We need to be out by 9p.m.

Nicole Vette ?– Where is the B4 and the R3?

CS ?– The three south lots (most adjacent to Safeway) are zoned B4. The other six are R3. Chris pointed out the zoning on the map.

NV ?– I feel like I?’m seeing the same thing from the first meeting (at Paul Brothe?’s house). There?’s a parking issue and also the mass. There?’s a serious problem with parking. I won?’t be able to park next to my house. Why can?’t the parking entrance be somewhere else (not next to my house)?
CS ?– It can be. Traffic engineering has the final authority. They?’ll tell you where to put the entrance.

NV ?– I oppose the height. It?’s doesn?’t fit with the neighborhood.

Jim Wiseman ?– I?’d like to preface this by saying that I respect everyone here. Some people have taken exception to the size. We have a very small hammer, very little leverage. We don?’t want to kill the project. We need to make compromises. TUP should make a good faith effort and put off the zoning application. It could impact East Village and how it gets developed. It sets a terrible precedent. Maybe there are some other options. Could it be zoned a PUD to drop parking down- maybe an R4 footprint.

SN ?– We?’d trade one problem for another.

JW ?– Maybe we can get something and give something. Consider pushing the application back.

MJ ?– I think that?’s a great idea.

Patrick Fischer ?– I?’d like to clarify with Chris. 59?’ is the highest it could be?

CS ?– Chris explained the bulk plain?…there is no height limit in R3.

SN ?– Height can be mitigated.

PF ?– Do you have any idea how low you can make the building?

CS ?– If you reduce the height, the voids begin to pop out. Chris visually explained how the building proportions would change as height was increased or decreased. He also explained the difference in construction types and how they encouraged certain kinds of building.

MJ ?– How much money would it cost to put both levels of parking underground?

CS ?– No. We don?’t have those numbers now. The cost increases exponentially.

Chaos breaks out.

MJ ?– Could you get those numbers to us in a week?

CS ?– We are getting ahead of ourselves. You are putting us on the spot. Putting parking underground dramatically increases the cost.

SN ?– We do need to ask for your consideration. If you were in our shoes... We don?’t have the same profit margins. We don?’t necessarily have the ability to do it. This is not doable in our case. Please consider that.

Marnie Ward ?– We are going in circles. I appreciate your bringing all this to us. You are asking for our position on the rezoning. I get the sense that many things could happen. If we support you in this zoning, we would like in writing that you?’d seek neighborhood input. I know that?’s (not seeking neighborhood input) not how you operate.

SN ?– We need to look in context of $ per sq. foot.

MJ ?– Let?’s take some quick questions.

Corey Oakley ?– Does it have to be 50 units?

CS ?– 50 units is based on the proforma, the cost to develop the units plus the land cost. The project has to financially make sense.

PB ?– You didn?’t bring the man who said you could negotiate the number of units.

SN ?– Unfortunately, he couldn?’t speak to that. Bill Mahaffey is our attorney and he was there to talk about the land trust. I?’m sorry that got said. We have to develop what number of units makes sense for the dollars they will fund. Some of that is dictated by funders.

PB ?– Perception is reality.

SN ?– I?’m sorry that it got stated.

Bob Marshall ?– This is reminiscent of Safeway. They wanted to do a 7-story building and the neighborhood prevented that. He talked about Catholic Towers. Post is 4 stories high, it?’s a solid mass. Keep in mind with Jim (Wiseman) said. This will affect East Village. We?’ve got to figure something out. 5 stories is too high.

SN ?– Things can be done to mitigate the height of the building.

Dale Harmon ?– What are your sources of funding? Can we see your proforma?

SN ?– CHFA and HANDS are funders.

DH ?– What percentages?

SN ?– It varies. It depends on the combination of funding. We have up to seven or eight funders on our projects.

Todd Taylor ?– What?’s your target sq ft. and price range? What criteria did you use to come up with those price per sq foot figures and is it consistent with the neighborhood?

JH ?– I write the proformas and a big part of that is studying the market. The units will be one- two- and three-bedroom from 650 to 1700 sq ft. Josh also gave the range of sales prices for affordable and market units and confirmed that the price per sq. ft was in line with neighborhood sales prices.

HF ?– I have a few comments. I sell real estate. I can tell you that a home sitting next to a 5-story building is devalued. We are being asked to sacrifice for 10 units of affordable housing probably occupied by people who don?’t even live in the neighborhood.

MJ ?– Is there a way to hold of on submitting the rezoning application and work with the neighborhood to come up with a viable compromise? Yes or no?

SN ?– I can?’t give you a yes or no. Submitting the rezoning application is critical to getting started.

MJ ?–We?’ll vote.

BB ?– Here?’s what I propose. We put together a comparison for you and in 2 to 3 weeks we have another meeting.

Don Gortner ?– We can?’t do that until we resolve the density issue.

SN ?– The height can be mitigated by design. We are not in the design phase yet. If we don?’t change the zoning someone else will and I don?’t think you?’ll get this input. We want the project and we want your support.

DG ?– It?’s hard to draw a line between zoning and design.

SN ?– We?’ll stay with you on this zoning. The zoning is a technical piece. Density will drive success.

MJ ?– Thanks. Let?’s take a straw poll.

Someone said that we ought to wait.

Alana Smart ?– This is the first step. At the point the application is submitted the city does an intensive review. The project has to comply with the comprehensive plan. The city staff than forwards the application to the Land Use Committee at City Council. The Committee will ask if the development has affordable housing. Is it in compliance with the plans? What are the neighborhood issues? Then the application goes to council for a public hearing. It?’s an intensive process.

MJ ?– How long is the process?

AS ?– 6 months.

CS ?– It?’s supposed to take 3 months but usually it takes 6. TUP looked at the plans and this development is consistent with them and existing zoning. I think there are a number of ways to look at the question of the vote.

PB ?– We made a commitment and we have to leave the room.

MJ ?– Do we want to meet again?

SN ?– We?’ll call you.

MJ ?– We?’d like to keep this process going.